The Stores That Make You Feel Something

Tami Murphy has spent 20 years inside specialty toy retail — and she still gets lit up talking about it. In this episode, she breaks down what makes a store feel like magic instead of just a place to buy stuff: the sensory details most brands get wrong, why Gen Z is actually saving brick-and-mortar, what she asks founders before she ever talks marketing, and the surprisingly joyful reason she loves the smell of manure. Plus: her dream toy store, in full detail.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome back to Brands and Banter. I'm Joanna, and if you're new here, this is the show where we talk to people who work at the intersection of brand, experience, and the real world, people with strong opinions and who have their seats to back them up. So I'm super excited to chat today with Tammy Murphy, founder of Tamic Strategies. Tammy has spent her career deep inside specialty retail, specifically the toy industry, consulting with brands and founders on how to grow without losing what made them interesting in the first place. She's also an Astroplay expert, which is exactly as cool as it sounds. So Tammy, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Thank you. It's good to be here. I laughed when you said strong opinions because yeah, I've never been accused of not having an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I love it. That's that's good. I I like a good strong opinion. Um, I'm gonna start with something that I think sounds simple, but I've been thinking about since we set this up. Uh, the episode theme is really all about the stores that make you feel something. When you hear that phrase, what comes to mind for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Magic.

unknown 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Like when I walk into a store in our industry, a toy store, I want to feel magic. I want to feel playful. I want I want to be happy, you know, and upbeat. Play is play is fun. Play is so fundamental to our who we are as human beings and who kids are. Like that's their job, right? That is their job to play because play is how they learn. Um so yeah, that's how we want to feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think magic is is the perfect word for that because there's nothing quite like the magic of walking into a toy store that just like invites you to be playful and to interact. Um, so I know we'll dive a little deeper into that, but I I couldn't agree more. Um, so let's talk about your world. When you say specialty retail, specifically specialty toy, what does it actually look like from the inside? Because I think most people might have kind of a surface level picture of what that what that is.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I was thinking, uh, yeah, about this because I've been in it for 20 years and my family's been around it for 20 years. So I'm like, what do people think? And I I kind of started thinking about, well, when I meet people and I they, you know, invariably we're we're all trained to say, How's the weather? What do you do for work? kind of thing, right? When I answer, what do I do for work? I um try to be uh kind of funny about it and I say, Well, I play for a living, and they kind of look at me all strange. I'm like, Well, I work with toy and game companies bringing their play products to the market. So I play for a living, right? And and people immediately like, oh, that's so cool. And it is cool. I won't lie. I love being in the play industry. It's it's a lot of fun because we do get a play with toys, we do get a play with games, we're playful by nature, um, and we're not, you know, selling medical instruments that save people's lives, we're not transporting organs, we're playing. Um, nonetheless, play is serious business and it's big business, right? So I think um people forget that it is such a big business, and it's a business that runs on tight margins, and so there's a lot that goes into having uh a successful, functional, thriving business within our industry. It's it's challenging, right? Yeah, no, I I so does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Is that giving you kind of a No it does for sure, and I think that it's something that a lot of people don't understand kind of the nitty-gritty of the business piece of it, and they're just like, oh, it's a toy store, it sells toys to little kids, you know, and they maybe don't understand that. I mean, at least I think this is maybe straying a little bit, but when you walk into a toy store, it needs to appeal to the kids, but also the parents, the adults, the grandparents that are coming and bringing that child into the store. And so I think that appeal factor and and understanding kind of the wider net of your demographic that's coming in the store is probably super important.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

It it is important, and you know, the other thing people probably don't understand is how big the industry is and how wide. Like you were at Toy Fair for the first time this year, yeah, and then you're about to go to the other the next show, which um Toy Fair is all the big guys and a lot of the medium and small guys, um, and big retailers, small retailers kind of it's it's everyone, but it caters more towards the big. Uh, this next show in June is for the specialty trade, which is the small independent toy stores and all the service providers and product providers for them. And if you use like the 80-20 rule, probably you are seeing 20% when you walk into a big box store, you're probably seeing 20% of the products that are available in our market on the shelves. There are so many products available to people, um, great products that they just won't find unless they start exploring specialty toy stores because these people are experts. They spend their careers going to stores, reviewing products, knowing how play works and how kids play and how adults play for that matter, because that's important too. What you just said is we play at all ages, and um, the two most important, I think, for me personally, because I have a 91-year-old mother, is as important for my 91-year-old mother to play and work her brain and work her motor skills, whether they're fine or gross, as it is for a child who's growing up and developing. It's equally as important. One is is gaining those skills, the other one is retaining them, right? So I I think people also might not understand the scope of how many products they're out there. And I looked up, I was curious because I, you know, Amazon is a real thing, uh, you know, that everyone deals with. And um, sorry, but uh there are in our category, toy and game category, six to ten million products listed on Amazon under our category. Imagine six to ten million. It's it's craziness. Um but I I think um one of the reasons I personally love specialties so much is because those owners curate um products based on knowing who their clients are or who their customers are, who traditionally walks in their door, they know their communities, they know their staff, they know they they just they gain that sense over time. You know, not only do they read numbers and spreadsheets, but they know the personal part. Like they're really human. You can't take you can't replace that with a spreadsheet. There's a human element to making sure you pick the right products and put them on your store shelf, and um it's very curated at the specialty independent um level.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And I love that too, because I think it can be so community-based, and what you know is maybe hitting in the Midwest is not what's hot out west or in the south, or um, so I think that's that is the magic to go back to that word about some of these specialty retailers, is like you know, when they can really hit home on on what their community wants and needs and those desires, I think you really start to see that that momentum come through. So that's awesome. I just think about all of these toys that are so hot right now and like just flying off the shelves because of how social media viral they are, and I'm like, that's one that's one product out of this six to ten million that you're talking about that's that's on Amazon. Like, I know Nitos are all the rage right now and like out of stock everywhere. And it's just it's nuts to me how quickly something like that picks up and um you know flies off the shelves.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I was um actually funny because I was in a conversation and um I'm on a couple different groups and committees, and uh one of our committees we we were talking about that Nito trend and how funny it was that NITO has been around for a long time, right? And the specialty stores have been carrying Nito, and it's just part of their normal ordering, and no one was prepared as Shilling wasn't prepared either, the company that makes Nito, right? For all of a sudden, something happened, right? It was a TikTok video or something, and it just and it became this thing, and um because we we quietly joked, and it's actually not a joke, but trends start in specialty. The specialty toy store owner is gonna start to see these things before anybody else. Hacky sacks also like all of a sudden, like in the last white couple weeks, hacky sacks had blown up, and I was it was in a conversation with someone in this industry weeks ago before I heard it. Someone said, Ooh, hacky sacks, and I'm like, what? And then all of a sudden hacky sacks were everywhere, and they they they see it coming.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, I bet that is that is really interesting too, and to your point about some of these big box retailers maybe only having 20% of what's in the industry, and then these more specialty independent retailers have a more curated assortment. I'm sure that they have some things that the discoverability with it of walking into a store like that and being able to play with something that is maybe different, um, is is what can lead to a lot of these trends too, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, and by definition, their buying cycles are different, right? And uh the the mass market, their buying cycles are for product sets in thousands of stores, right? So they need everything to be ordered well in advance so it can be produced and manufactured and shipped to the warehouse, and then their their distribution centers spread it out, and then the stores have to set it up. Whereas in a specialty store, they can see something, they can place an order for a dozen of them and they're in their store the next week and they're putting them on their shelf, right? So they just by definition, they can be so much more nimble and they can explore products a lot easier than mass market, which is another plug for every specialty toy store out there, go, because you will find things that you won't see, you know, in mass market. You might eventually see them, but you're gonna see them in specialty more that often than not. There are certain companies that go straight to special straight to mass market, and those are the Hasbro's the Mattels of the world, right? They they do go to mass market first, and their stuff that's where you would go. But for the rest of the innovative, creative minds, they go to specialty first. That's where they drop their products and explore and and innovate.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, makes sense. I love it. Well, let's talk about everyone keeps saying physical retail is dying. Um, I think you clearly have a take on this, or at least it's maybe a little bit more complicated. Um, so give me your honest take on that when people start to tell you it's not fine out.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

That's my honest take. It is not. So it is changing for sure. It is absolutely changing. Um, and it is becoming, I think, difficult. Uh you know, but it seems like there's always something going on, right? There's always some challenge. Since I've been um in the industry, in the B when I first started, it was Walmart was an evil word, right? Like, well, you're in Walmart, I don't want to carry your product. And then it was not Walmart, it was Amazon. You're on Amazon and I don't want to carry your product. And now it's not Amazon. And now, you know, it's it's tariffs, it's high gas prices, it's shipping costs, it's this, it's that, you know, and you know, I think also there was a huge thing, um, I can't remember the year, but I was fairly new to the industry, and lead paint was like the the rage, and then it was magnets, and then it was something else, and it's always something else. So there's always challenges, so we're always adapting. Um so I think is it dead? No. Is it changing? Absolutely. Is it more challenging than it was 20 years ago? Well, sure, because you know, it's a different world than it was 20 years ago, and we're evolving. Um, but not to make light of it, but no, it is not dying. Um, and I think you've seen um is it Gen Z has um a preference, and actually I have a child that age, and his older siblings will first go online to look in order, and he will actually go to a store.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

And and I laugh because people say, Well, instant gratification, you know, you're on your phone, you press bye, bye, bye. Well, what is more instant gratification than actually looking at something, touching it, paying for it, and bringing it home right in that moment? Like, that's retail, the like true instant gratification in my mind is is going to a retail store and getting it in your possession immediately and not waiting till tomorrow when Amazon is going to deliver it.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, no, I think that is such an interesting point because we have seen that Gen Z and and younger are really wanting to go in store and actually touch and feel and see it so that they can understand the product that they're getting. I think, truthfully, it's because they're overwhelmed with a lot of technology and you know, being online all the time for other things, that it's like to have an engagement point for them that's not digital, I think like clicks in their brain. So we have been seeing that trend, and it's across all industries in retail, and I think it's really fascinating because I think so many people thought that you know this generation of kids that's never known anything but technology is going to want to play right into e-com and they they don't. So it it's promising for you know what the retail industry will continue to do and how it will continue to evolve for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Right. Well, it and think that many of the small retail stores, the ones that are thriving and actually adding locations, because in our industry I've seen numerous toy stores like, oh, I'm adding a second location. Oh, this person is going out of business, so I'm gonna buy their store and make it like we see that happening now. Um, and a lot of these stores are playing to that digital, also. So if you have a local store, they may have an online element that you can buy online, they may have, you know, a TikTok shop or they may have an Instagram shop where you can just buy instantly. They also have, I know I so many Toy Store owners will say, Well, I get messages, I get instant messages, I get text messages, I get phone calls, I get their customers actually reach out to them directly and say, I need help, I need to buy, do you carry? And so a lot of them are adding the technology while keeping the brick and mortar, and it supports it. So it's not an either-or, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:39

It's uh and yeah, no, I definitely agree. Um, I want to get a little bit into independent versus big box, um, because I think your like perspective on it is maybe a little bit more nuanced. Um, but can these independent retailers actually win? And what does winning mean for specialty independent right now?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Okay. I don't think it's a matter of winning or losing. I think it's a matter of leaning into what they do well and getting enough piece of the pie to let their business thrive, right? Because there's always going to be a Walmart, a Target, an Amazon, um, depending on where you live, a Meyer, um, you know, anything like that. There's always gonna be someone else. Um, and rather than really going after that, it's winning your own game, right? What makes them so important to their community? Uh so so I don't think it's a win-loss. It's um in my own, like I'll use my own personal example. I I do go into Walmart, I buy on Amazon, and I know some of my specially friends, if they listen to this, they're gonna maybe think twice about being my friend. Um, but if I can buy local, I buy local. If I can't find something in a locally owned store, some odd thing or some, you know, detergent I like or shampoo I like or you know, nail product. Uh just the other day I was trying to find something special for my cuticle, which is giving me problems. And yeah, I I bought it from Jeff Bezos because I did my research and I couldn't find it anywhere else. And I'm like, okay, in that case, I'll buy it there. Um, but if I can go into my local grocery store and buy fresh produce from uh wherever they buy it locally, I'm gonna do it. If I need um a gift or um a friend, whether it's an adult friend, I'll go to my local gift store and she'll help me find the right gift. That's the cool thing, right? They act as personal shoppers. You do and you tell them what you're looking for and you tell them your budget and they'll start walking you around the store and showing you things. Uh and the same thing for a toy store. If I have gifts for for the kids in my life, well, the first thing I do is actually reach out to my clients and say, What do you have that I can get them? But also friends, you know, industry friends. But I'll I'll walk into a local toy store, one of the four that I have access to, and tell them what I'm looking for, and then they help me pick the right thing. And if I need it wrapped, they wrap it for free. I think that's the biggest secret people don't know is they can if they're on their way to somewhere, it whether it's urgent and you're on your way to the birthday party, and you like, oh my gosh, I haven't really gotten a great gift, or you know it's coming up, you can go into a specialty store, and probably 90% of them will wrap the gift for you. And like, you know, you walk into a big box and you pick something off the shelf, and then you gotta go to the wrapping paper section, and then you gotta buy a ribbon, and then you have to, or you buy a gift bag, and then you have to buy tissue paper, and then you have to buy a card. Well, you can go into a specialty store, whether it's a gift store, a bookstore, a toy store, a locally owned toys or a store, and they wrap it for you and they get it ready to give as a gift right then and there. And most of them have gift cards too. You can, you know, you can uh card, you can sign your name and touch it, and you're good to go.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And that's all part of the magic.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

It is part of the magic. So back to the original question can they survive? Yeah, they can survive because they do things like that. They they are personal shoppers, they are, you know, curating product that if you want to give a gift that someone says, Oh my god, I didn't even know this was a thing, I didn't know I needed this. This is so thoughtful and special. Like when I give a gift, I don't know about you, but like, okay, people like say, hey, I could use this, that, or the other, and they make a gift list. And I, depending on who it is and what's on the gift list, I may or may not go after it because I love to give the unexpected something that I buy just for them that I think they'll like that they didn't know they needed or didn't know they wanted until they saw it. And I'm not gonna find that scrolling on Amazon. I'm not gonna find that walking the aisles of a big box store. I'm gonna find that walking in and talking to the owner or store manager or worker at a locally owned store and telling them we call it in um you mentioned the play expert, we call it prescripted play. And what that is is saying to them, I'm buying for this person, and they'll say, Tell me about that person, and I'll tell them about the person, their interests, their likes, their age, what they don't like, what I want for them, and of the gift, and then they will help me find just that one thing that I think, all right, this is it, this is where I'm gonna blow their socks off and give them this. And you don't get that elsewhere. So I think that's why they survive. They survive because it's personal.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah. I I mean I've worked retail for years and years, um, you know, actually on the retail floor and the difference between working in in big box retailers and then some more specialty um retailers, and just the desire for that customer experience and that navigation through the process of okay, you know, you're shopping for this special occasion and you're looking for a dress, and like how can we get more information out of these people to understand what is truly going to meet their needs? So I appreciate that experience so much now on the flip side, where I'm like walking into a specialty retailer and I'm like, hey, I'm shopping for this person, there's nothing like shopping. For the people in your life that have everything, and you're like, I don't know what I can get this person, but I'm gonna find something unique and elevated that is truly like authentic to them. And you're so right, you're not getting that at a big box retailer, you're not getting it at an Amazon, you're getting it at that local little shop that's 10 minutes down the road from your house. And I and I love that.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, and actually, when I'm this is so outside of my own industry. When I um am buying clothes for myself, I have found as I've gotten older and go to you know the stores where you know you see everything, I have discovered these small, like little town boutiques that I walk in and I start talking to the person and saying, Hey, I'm going to a trade show or I'm going on vacation and I don't like anything in my closet. This is why I don't like it. And they'll pull stuff out and you'll be trying on stuff you would have never chosen, and then you surprise yourself, right? Because they see they they are helping you again like get something that is gonna be the wow, that isn't gonna be just like everybody else has, and um so I like that. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Um, so let's switch gears a little bit. Um, you talk a lot about the full sensory retail experience. Walk me through that when you walk into a store and it's working. What are you picking up on?

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Okay. Um, so I think here's the key. You're picking up on nothing.

unknown 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Because it's so subtle, right? Like the what if they if they have a scent, and I talked to a few stores about what about putting scents in your store? Because, you know, I've told you I have like my dream store in my mind, and I have a scent that I'd want to use, but then I'm like, you worry about, well, is that the wrong scent? Is that too much? Is that you know, or you have the wrong type of lights and it hurts people's eyes. And is that gonna hurt? Like it's all should be seen effortless. And when you walk in, you just it all's cohesive, right? You hear music kind of a beat, and it kind of makes you want to do that, right? And you're like, okay, that's a great beat. I like that, it's giving me some energy, and then the smell, you know, whether it there is one or not, should be subtle and give you an emotion. Um visually, by definition, uh an independent toy store is experiential and touch, right? They they're almost all of them are about samples. Like you can get things out. The plushies are always out, right? You can grab the plushies and feel them, or the the fidget toys are usually in buckets and accessible, and you can try them out and feel them, but they also have play products out, right? They'll open, have magnetiles out, or they'll have a burrito table, or they just have games open that you can kind of play and see what they're all about. So by definition, those are experiential and touch. They get that. Um it's funny how in really thinking about because I knew you you wanted to talk about the sensory experience, and I thought about the stores I've been and the store owners that I know. Um, and each store reflects the owner's personality, and it's really fascinating to me. And I didn't put the pieces together, but it's they're they're authentic. They're like the store owner is the store, and the store is the store owner. If that that sounds very woo-boo. Um, you know, you take our if I could, I'd give two examples. Um, actually, maybe three examples. Um, I know a store owner up in Vermont, and her store is so eclectic. It is um, you walk in and it's like so much. It's it's a lot of stuff, and it just weaves you through her store, and every little corner you kind of peek, and there's a hidden little corner in here. And look at all the fun stuff here, and it's very organized, and there's some themes going on, and then there's categories that are put together that may you may see other parts, like if it's sunflowers, you may see the sunflower hat and purse and a game or a craft that's sunflower-based in a corner, but the sunflower craft is also with all the craft stuff, right? So it's organized in that sense, but it's like it's like an scavenger hunt, it's an adventure being in her store seeing what you're gonna see, and it's like so visual, it's crazy. Um, and that's her, right? And then I could go into a store in Chicago, um, and this this owner is everything is white, it's crisp, it's white, there's a lot of natural light, and the the products themselves are the um the visual, right? That's where the color comes from. Everything is kind of it's urban, so it feels urban, right? And the scent, um, she only uses a scent during Christmas time to make people feel like she like a pine scent that makes people think, oh, Christmas, ooh, I better start buying gifts, right? That's the subliminal message right there. Um, but her store is bright and clean and crisp, and always things you can touch, of course, because it's a Play Store, but um that's her vibe. Whereas if down in um southern Indiana, there's another store I own, and she just bought a Victorian house, an old Victorian house, and totally redid it, right? And there's wallpaper, big flower wallpaper on the wall, and there's shelving and nooks and crannies, and like everything is always flowing, and there's so much cool there you can explore, but it's um it's not as much mint product as like the Vermont store, but there's a well-stocked shelves, but it feels a little more um I don't know, straight like organized. I I don't know how to say it, but her and and that's her, that's her personality, and each one it fits the owner's personality, so it's curious to me like how they do it. And um, the the store in Indiana said it's all about making people feel cohesive, right? Like it's so subtle they don't even know it, but it all works together to make a feel in the store, and it's it takes time for them to figure this out, and it takes time. Um, the owner in Chicago said she wants people to walk in and leave the outside world behind. So things like music are intentional in her store. Um, she doesn't play the radio, it's an approved list of kind of pop songs anywhere from the 60s to the 2000s, and it's got a nice beat, so you can hear, you know, people might be tapping their toe or kind of doing, you know, dancing along. Um, but it's not distracting. They can still have conversations, and if they're they're talking and they're struggling with something, the worker can actually hear over and say, Oh, okay, I need they need my help and they can come over. Um, but it's all cohesive and gives the right feel. Um, it's not too much, it's not too little, but that's you know, there's there's a reason like they they have gotten these stores have been around for a while because they've tried trial and error. Um, you know, the store, the scents. Think about the scents, and that's the one thing I just mentioned. Um they you can overdo it. I would worry that I would overdo it. And um the her, she said, actually, I I would love to be able to do what those high-end boutique hotels do, which is you know, you pump in like a lint a fresh linen scent, and you know, it's Christmas clean, but she's like, you know, that's an expensive system that they have. Yeah, and I she's tried many things before, and uh through her employees have learned, ooh, no, that that thing is giving me like my allergies are going crazy, turn it off. So she has discovered she's better off leaving the scents behind and like only burning a candle at Christmas time with that pine scent, and that's how they get that in the air. Um, there's a store in Bend, Oregon. I know she said she puts scents in the store, but I found this funny. So watermelon would be a summer scent, cinnamon would be, you know, a holiday scent, but she puts um in the dead of winter, she'll put um a tropical scent in um because she's like we need sunlight and we need that feel, and so I tried to give them that feel, so she's seasonally changing up the scent of her store to give an emotion to people. Um so I think the the biggest takeaway is you do it, but you do it so well, and you pick even down to the right light bulb, right? And because one of uh the store owner in Chicago told me like she knew exactly what light bulb was approved and which one wasn't because they played around with it and the one that gives the best light. So down to the light bulb they choose, down to the scent, what their walls are colored, it's all about keeping cohesion in and it makes sense together, all the the lights and everything, it has to work together. Like you can't have you know, a tropical scent in a store that feels like an old country, you know, old country store, and you are piping in a tropical scent and then electronic music of like that's like like that's disconnect. You have to have it all connected, but you also want it so they want to stay in your store, like it's not so oppressive in its that you're like, okay, let's get in and get out. Um, you know, to give an example, I don't want to call it out, but it's it's a it's a mass market, and I love to go into this one, it's geared towards 20 somethings, right? And the store is very loud, and they play electronic music in it, and I go in and I'm like, I love to poke around in there just because I'm in the industry and I love to see what they choose to sell and not sell and what's in their world, what you know, for their clients, our customers, what they like, but it's so loud that I go in and I'm like, oh, I start to like, you know, I gotta get out of here, I gotta get out of here. But again, I'm not their customer base, right? Their customer base, I see the the late teens, early 20s, and they're not bothered by the music at all. They're just talking away and they can hear each other and they can explore. Um, so some of it is knowing your customer, but and finding the right fit. It's trial and error, like everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah, for sure. So there's also probably an accessibility angle here that you had mentioned that most brands maybe don't think about right off the bat. Um, so tell me a little bit about that. What does accessibility look like in a retail sensory context?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Well, that would that would be the scent issue, right? Like pumping in a scent that like triggers people's allergies. Not good. They're gonna leave and have a negative feel, right, on the store, or having um the wrong music and the wrong lighting, because then it's it drains their energy. You know, if you don't have happy, upbeat music and you have more mellow and sad music, what does that what does that mood does that put the buyer in, right? And um, if it's darker rather than brighter and more natural light feeling, it drains their energy. So you you know, you all you think about all these things. Um from the visual standpoint, I think not only store owners but vendors who supply the products have to really think about what their product looks like visually on the store, on the store shelf, and if there's a way to make it so it can be a a feel experience, a touch, a feel. Um, whether that's we have to like be able to give a sample to these specialty stores so they can open it and have it so people can interact and play, or is there a window where someone can, you know, if it's it's a sensory thing, can they feel it if it's in a package? Can so there's there's something there also for suppliers who vendors who supply the products to remember. Like you're part of the visual, you're part of the the touch of a store.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Yeah, certainly. That's a good outlook on it, too. Um let's shift in a little bit about the work that you do with founders. So let's talk about how you actually work with founders. Um and this uh first question, really, like aside from anything else, what do you ask them first? Like your first conversation with them, how do you kind of kick that off?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Okay. Uh so to be clear, so I don't work with the retail stores, I work with the people who make the products who put the stuff on the shelves.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Uh the first thing I want to ask them, honestly, is what's what's the end game for you? Are you doing this, starting this business because you want to eventually sell it and make some money and you're you're growing something of value to cash out, and or are you growing a toy company to run a toy company? Do you want to own and grow long term? Some people don't know for sure, and that's okay, and there's no right or wrong answer to that question, but it it helps set the stage. Like, what's their mindset? What are they really after? Um, because that that helps determine the path forward.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I think that's something that when you kind of get into anything, some people have this big idea and they're like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna do X, and they don't always understand like where it can take them and what other threads they can do. So I think having that initial conversation for them to kind of think about, like, oh, I didn't even think about all of the different options is probably really helpful in those early stages.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Um, what's the thing that you feel like founders most consistently resist when you start working with them, or maybe that they're getting wrong and you kind of help um recharge them?

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Ooh, if actually if they resist advice, yeah, and not just my advice, but if you're if you have a product and you um showing it to retailers and they are saying, Ooh, that packaging is not gonna work in my store, or um, the colors are usually colors, that's a subjective thing, but the packaging is pretty pretty solid. Like if you have a package that's 14 inches by 16 inches by 4 inches deep, like everyone's gonna be like, that that's no, that's too much on a shelf. Um, so I guess things like really logistical things about are you making it easy for a store to buy your product? And if they're resistant to that, that that's a problem, right? So that that's one thing that I look for as a flag, I would say, but where they're resistant, um I don't know. I I really I don't have a good answer. The one thing that pops into my mind that isn't really the right answer for this question is is their profit margin.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

If they're they gotta be willing to talk about their profit margin and what their product is worth on the retail market, than what it has to be wholesale versus what it costs to make. Um, if that isn't in alignment, that that that can be a challenging conversation, right? And a challenging because that means you either have to change the price point or you have to change how you're making the product to make it profitable to have a thriving business. So maybe that is the answer to your question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

No, I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

It it's profit margin, right? If it's not on, because I think people, I I think I said it earlier, it's a tight margin industry. So if you don't have it, your product price right, and you're a small business, and you're kind of in the beginning founder days, and you know, hopefully you have some funds and some capital, but if you plan to be scrappy and and make it like you still need money to launch a business in this industry, but you can be scrappier, but your profit margin has to be there because as you're selling, you're having to funnel money back into your business.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah, for sure. So, what does it look like when it goes right? Like, what are those things that when you're working with these founders um that like really get it? Um, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

That relationship? Um it's fun, it's a roller coaster, right? So when I think also let let's if I could take a step back. Yeah. When when I'm also talking to him in the beginning, the question also is at the end of the year, what would make you happy with your company, right? What would make you say this year was successful and set me up for a great year too? Um, and that depends. And if they say I would be thrilled if you said we sold into Target, versus I'd be thrilled if a hundred stores bought my pr product, you know, and we're carrying my product. And it doesn't matter what store, just a hundred stores. Those are two very different scenarios and setting yourself up for different expectations and plans. But when it's all going right, um it's it's a it's roller coaster because you're growing a business, and by definition, when you grow a business, you don't have all the human resources you need, right? So you're wearing every hat. So you're a bit of um hair on fire, you know, and you're you're doing one thing, and then this pops up, and success, um success can cause chaos, good chaos, right? Like the more successful you are, the more people start buying it, the more you have to fulfill, the faster you have to move, um, the more you have to respond and grow. And so I guess when it's all working well, it it's roller coaster ride, right? And then it's you're you get to the end of the ride, like at the end, if you love roller coasters, you're like thrilled, right? You've been you've been up, you've been down, you've gone upside down, but you're like laughing and smiling and happy and and and just feeding energy to it. I I think that's that's what it looks like.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I think that's feels like yeah, I think that's a perfect explanation. I mean, I can't even imagine the the wave of emotions and things that you go through as you're kind of navigating um all the different processes that it takes to get some of these founders to a place where they can sell into a target or into a bunch of retailers that they they want by the end of the year. So I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Um, I want to take us a little bit back to sensory because you have a story that you started to allude to when we first met that you were telling me about when you were teaching the sense of smell um in your astra certified play expert class. Yeah and a strong childhood memory that you had with the scent of manure. Can you tell me that story?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Sure. It's kind of funny. So so I did, I grew up like in rural Ohio, right? And it was fun when I realized you're you were based in Ohio because I'm out east now, and um, but I grew up in farm country. So for me, um the sense, the scent of manure, although unpleasant as it is, it is unpleasant. I'm not saying I like it, but it triggers the emotion, happy emotions for me, because it means summertime. It means school's coming, going out of session, and it means summertime. It means being at the pool, riding my bike with my friends, being free, and mom saying, be home by dark. And you know, it's it's just happiness, pure happiness. Um, and so I did look up for you. I thought this was interesting because the scent of smell is, and you know this, I'd listened to one of your past um podcasts, and you were talking about perfume and scents and things and memories and it triggering. Um, so your olfactory system is directly linked to the limbic part of your brain, and that's where emotions and memories live. So I kind of was curious about this, like the idea that some unpleasant scent can actually bring me happiness. So I I did look it up, and this is the explanation of what is happening in my brain. Um, so my olfactory bulb maps the chemical signature of the manure, which then shoots the signal to my hip. Hippocampus, which holds a file basically labeled childhood summers, and then the hippocampus tells my amygdala that this specific smell equals freedom, sunshine, and play, which then gives me a hit of dopamine, which is the reward and pleasure chemical that our body produces. So that is actually what's going on. So even though part of my brain is recognizing an ugly scent, the other part of my brain is hijacking it with happy memories and saying, no, yeah, unpleasant, but summertime, fun, play, pool, you know, childhood.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

I absolutely love that. Because I think scent is such a strong, and I mean, I didn't know even the nitty-gritty of everything that you just outlined, so that's I'm gonna have to go research it a little bit more now, too. But manure is such a funny example of that, but I love that it has such a strong, like happy connection for you because I grew up in the Columbus, Ohio area, um, and I'm still here today. And there's definitely, you know, the more rural parts of Ohio where I'm sure um you get that, you get hit with that scent a little bit more frequently, but there's so many things that remind us of this like Ohio summer and school ending and being so excited, and I have similar memories of of that and that transition out of school. So I love that a not so pleasant scent is able to bring you happiness. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Yeah, yeah, right. And and I I do too. And I will say, did you know? And I don't know if you knew this, you I can't remember whether I heard you talk about in the other podcast. There are two scents that um related to play that um people recognize immediately, just the scent, and they can name the product in our industry that is related to it.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Is one Play-Doh, like the smell of crayon?

SPEAKER_00 45:54

One is Play-Doh, yeah. Yeah Play-Doh is one of the scents, and Crayola crayons are the other scent that people like smell those, and they just know the product immediately. And um, I always thought that was fun that that meant uh, you know, play. Play-doh is it has such a rice, strong scent, and and it's it's identifiable.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Yeah, I mean, talk about strong brand identity there, like just the scent of a product being able to tell you, oh, I know for sure that's Play-Doh without even being able to see it is pretty cool. Yeah. Um, last thing here, and you knew it was coming. Tell me a little bit about your dream toy store. You say you had to build it from scratch. What does it look like? What does it feel like? What does it smell like, etc.?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Okay, so the key here is dream, which means it doesn't always have to be tethered to reality. Yes. Of course. All right. Because there are some things I'm thinking that's just not realistic, and my cat is about to join the chat, so we'll here we'll see if I can fend them off. Um, so the dream store changes depending on you know, the year, the mood, the time. I am so sorry here. This is Walter. Um, so I I think I have two parts to my story. This is how I envision it. You enter into a store that is that magical moment, like I had mentioned, and it's um everything is like as if you're three feet tall, right? Like kind of all the fun stuff is at the eye level of uh someone who's three feet tall, i.e., probably what, a seven-year-old, six-year-old, or about it's been a while since I've had kids that size. Um, but it's it's bright, it's a bright store with splashes of color. I think I think the rainbow, right? It's not overwhelming, but there are splashes of those fun colors everywhere. Um, I imagine the scent in the air is lightly buttered popcorn, just faint butter popcorn, right? Makes me happy. Um, the sounds I I go back and forth on this one, and I think I would have like, you know, the upbeat happy music, like I think you find in most um toy stores. No, no words, just the music, but very low. But then kind of every once in a while you pipe in like kids laughing, you know, the just laughter, and maybe popcorn popping uh every once in a while, just those kind of there, but really like did I just hear popcorn popping? Like, is someone popping popping? Yeah, that that kind of thing. I want it. Um, I imagine uh buckets, like bright silver buckets full of um fidgets and full of plush and full of anything that they can touch and get their hands on, and then as you walk through, you know, you know, games and outdoor toys and a playmat that they can, you know, little kids can sit on and explore, either grab a book and and look through it, or um, you know, grab something and read it, whatever the case may be. This is again in my mind. Um, I also want a back room that has um a game library so people can actually sit down and like pull out a game and see what it's all about. I would love to have a game library. Um, in open toys, you know, things things that they can play with, like that are samples that they can actually sit down and play and play with. And then I want to walk into the other part of the store. Um, and I wanted to I want the first part of the store to be maybe like um birth baby, because babies play, you know, play from day one, um, to like the tweens, and then and then we go tweens and we kind of they're in transition area, right? There are some tweens that tend to be younger, some tweens that tend to be older, so you've got to transition them in both stores. Um, and then you go into the section that's meant for tweens and up, tweens to adults. And there I want a coffee bar in there, right? And I want different kind of music, still upbeat, but a little bit older. Um, I want, you know, uh area where you can sit and go through books, because I want books in my store, not a whole bookstore, but a section of books. Um, again, games and things out that they can play with, gift items, um, just unique things that they can explore and find. Like, I've never seen this before. Um, like almost want to make it like, oh my gosh, where did you get this? You know, like that could be the name of the sword. Where did you get this? Because it's just unique, curated, weird things, but very adult-friendly, very play-oriented, because I really want to encourage play at all ages. Um, so you know, the a lot of um game companies have adult stuff now. You know, there are adult-packaged uh games, they're adult-packaged Legos, they're adult-packaged all kinds of smart toys, doesn't a whole line of adult. Um, I want that kind of transition, but also um, you know, some hobby games thrown in there, and I'm not a hobby game person, but I do, you know, I guess Catan is the one thing I I play that's kind of that gateway game into the heavy strategy. Um, but that that's kind of I don't know what the scent would be in there. It wouldn't be popcorn. The scent would have to change.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

I'd have to think about that. Maybe it's coffee, maybe it's caramel. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Both sound delicious. I love the smell of coffee. Well, I'll tell you, I would shop at your toy store. I would and then I would be like, where is the fresh popcorn? I need I need the fresh popcorn while I while I go browse. So it I mean, I I love that. I think you clearly you have like a really good grasp and understanding of how um you know all different ages play and the importance of it at all these different key moments in your life. So I love that you have this like holistic view on on what a dream toy store could look like because I I think about that all the time, like you know, how I would curate certain stores and um what that looks like. So I I love it and I want to shop at it, so let's let's get you to open a store. Okay, okay, yeah. All right, so you'll be my bank. There we go. Yes, of course. Yeah. Um, well, Tammy, anything before we go that you want to touch on or talk about, um, this conversation's been awesome.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Oh, thank you. It's been fun. Um, I I think just again reiterate the fact that within the specialty, visit your your specialty toy store. If you find which one you have, because I I would encourage people to go in and actually take the time to talk to the people who work there. Um because they know play, right? They understand play, and everything they do as um as a community, if you will, within the specialty is to serve play, right? They are businesses and they need to make money and they need your support and buy something and all that, but also use them as a resource. They're so valuable, they know things, right? They understand child development and play, and I would leave people with uh just play, you know, and that doesn't mean you have to go buy a game or you don't have to go buy magnetiles or a uh Lego set, or but by all means do. Um but play can be dancing, play can be putting on some music and dancing around, like tap into your inner child and be fun because play releases chemicals within your body. They're called the happy chemicals, right? The dopamine, the oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins are like four chemicals you can tap into within your body just by playing. Skip, yeah, go for a walk in the nature, like dance, like balance on one foot and pretend to be uh, I don't know, a flamingo. Like be silly.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Yeah, I love it, and I couldn't agree more. I think adults probably need to play more, and teens probably need to play more, so I say let's keep pushing it and um you know getting getting everybody to play more because I couldn't agree more. You need those happy chemicals, they need to be prevalent for everybody. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm looking forward to seeing you here in a couple weeks in Milwaukee for Astra and um can't wait to connect more and and talk more toys. Well, thank you. I appreciate I appreciate being invited. Of course. Talk soon.